This article was written in October 1994, before the Chinese tested positive for steroids at the Asian games. Around that time period there was an extensive debate on the bulletin board "rec.sport.swimming" over the advocacy that the Chinese swimming program was "clean." Gendreau writes, "The number of positive tests from Chinese swimmers since then would convince anyone that there is systematic drug abuse (except the extremely gullible or nationalistic)." Gendreau's comments are equally relevant for today's on-going debate over drug-use in sports
I have compiled a list of arguments supporting the contention that the Chinese women are using steroids and/or other performance enhancing drugs. I have also included many of the defenses offered by those who attempt to find a rational explanation, excluding drug abuse, for the Chinese women's unprecedented ascent to world dominance in swimming, and rebutted them point by point. Some of this information has already been presented, but there is also a lot of new information here. The preponderance of evidence suggests that the Chinese women's swimming program depends on drug abuse for its success.
* Chinese women have had a meteoric rise in swimming. In the January 1994 issue of Swimming World the following information was presented:
Year 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 Number Chinese Women 5 7 6 10 28 with top 10 world rank
* The complete dominance of the Chinese in several events after such a short time is striking:
World Rankings
1993 50 free 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10
1993 100 fr 2, 3, 5, 6
1993 200 fr 2, 5, 6, 7, 9
1993 100 fly 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10
From the December 1993 issue of Runner's World: The most astonishing race at the (Chinese) National Games was the women's 50 meter freestyle. The first six finishers swam the six fastest times of 1993. "East Germany in its heyday would never have been that obvious," notes Nick Thierry, head statistician for the Federation Internationale de Natation Amateur (FINA)
Several people have attempted to rebut this by saying that there are individuals from other countries who have made dramatic improvements in a short time (such as Perkins or Dolan). Granted this is possible. History suggests that periodically one or a few superstars emerge from countries that have well-established programs. The point is that it is extraordinarily hard to believe that in the span of a few years a country with very little history in a sport, and very few world-level performances, could suddenly supply not just a few stellar athletes, but a large number of them whose performances result in an unprecedented dominance of the world.
To those who make an analogy between Chinese women's dominance of sprint swimming and US men of track and field, the analogy is weak because the US has a long history of success in sprint track events for both men and women. There is however a strong parallel between US men and women's success in sprint track events, and China's success in men's and women's diving events. Both nations have a long history of superiority in those sports. This success tends to feed on itself, with a strong program in place, and a history of success to attract and continually motivate new athletes who come along.
The allegation has been made that the ascent of the Chinese women has a parallel in US swimming (i.e., that the US swimmers emerged within a period of a few years to dominate world swimming). I believe this is untrue. But to those who believe it is true, make your case and support it with data. Hit the library, study the back issues of Swimming World and make a case. Certainly there has never been a difference in performance between US men and women in swimming comparable to that of the Chinese men and women.
* During the past five years the Chinese men have performed at a very low level compared to the Chinese women. The data presented above show that the Chinese women have had an unprecedented rise to world dominance in swimming, while the data presented below show that the Chinese men's performances have been stagnant at the world level. I have compiled the data in the table below from the annual listings in Swimming World of the year's top 25 fastest times. I have only presented the years 1989, 1990, 1992, and 1993 because I can't find my copy of Swimming World that has the 1991 results.
Chinese Men's top 25 world rankings:
Event Year 1989 1990 1992 1993 50 free 13th 21st 13th 100 free 16th 100 back 22nd 16th 100 breast 15th 13th 24th 6th, 15th 100 fly 3rd 12th 9th 19th, 20th 200 IM 20th 400 IM 23rd
The huge disparity between the performance of Chinese male and female swimmers directly parallels the disparity between E German male and female swimmers. It is now publicly acknowledged that the E German female swimmers were steroid assisted (see below).
Many attempts have been made to explain away the huge disparity between the performance of Chinese men and women by those who defend the meteoric rise of Chinese women in swimming as normal and non-drug assisted. These arguments and their rebuttals are presented below:
Defense #1: The Chinese women are ahead of the Chinese men in swimming but the men are making good progress and will soon be performing as well as the women. A Chinese swim coach has stated that in 2 to 3 years the men will be on par with the women. People have written in to the newsgroup [rec.sport.swimming] citing the records set by the Chinese men at the Asian Games to support the contention that the Chinese men are making progress.
Rebuttal: So what if the Chinese men are becoming big fish in the small pond of Asian Games swimming? This odd-ball comparison is an attempt to confuse the issue. The data presented above show undeniably that Chinese men have been stagnant at the world level for the past five years. During the same five years the women have skyrocketed to unprecedented world dominance. It makes sense to compare both the Chinese men and women to the rest of the world, the only relevant, consistent standard for comparison
Defense #2: One person posted an article stating that the difference in performance between Chinese men and women is due to the soybean, a major source of protein in Chinese diets. It was reported that the soybean contains weak-oestrogen. This weak-oestrogen blocks the estrogen in females (proportionally increasing testosterone levels). However, the same weak-oestrogen has some estrogen-like effect on men, masking their testosterone.
Rebuttal: First, I question the validity of this claim about the effect of the soybean on men and women. It defies common sense that it manages to make women more masculine and men more feminine. But even if the claim was true, the answer is obvious. Don't feed Chinese male athletes the soybean. Given the effort that has been invested in the Chinese sports system, there can be no doubt that the men can be fed a proper diet. Therefore, this is a very weak excuse to explain the disparity between Chinese men and women in swimming.
Defense #3: Chinese women have a better work ethic than Chinese men. Chinese men perceive swimming to be a sissy sport and are not interested in it
Rebuttal: Give me a break. Again, it has been stated in the defense of the Chinese success that they have an excellent system, strongly supported by the state. This infrastructure alone should be enough to motivate the Chinese men to work hard. But the Chinese government also offers $15,000 for an Olympic gold medal when the average monthly wage is $35 (in the US this would be equivalent to $10,700,000 assuming the average yearly salary here is $25,000), as well as monetary prizes for other achievements. The mere glory of an Olympic medal has been sufficient motivation for both male and female athletes around the world for decades.
Defense #4: Chinese women outperform Chinese men in many arenas including running, soccer, ping pong, and even chess.
Soccer: There is nearly a world-wide mania for men's soccer. It is a big money sport with much national pride for many nations. Therefore, the level of competition in men's soccer is very high. Women's soccer is not a big money sport or of great national pride. It is safe to say that the level of competition in women's soccer is much, much lower than in men. So it is much easier for a given nation to rise to the top of women's soccer than in men's soccer
In US swimming men and women train side by side. They do the same or nearly the same training. The numbers of men and women competing is nearly the same. Therefore, there is very little difference between the level of competition between men and women in swimming (certainly in the US, and I think it is safe to say in many other countries as well). The world wide level of competition between women must be considered to be roughly equivalent to that between men in swimming.
Chess: Not a relevant comparison, a cognitive vs. athletic activity. And again the level of world competition among men and among women is much different. It is beyond me why there is even a separate category for men and women in chess (seems to me that it insults the cognitive ability of women), except that the interest level in chess is so much lower in women. So the Chinese can much more easily dominate women's chess.
Ping Pong: Some sketchy information was presented to this newsgroup on the achievements of Chinese men and women in ping pong. The information was short on hard data and long on general impressions. However, as far as I could tell the disparity between the levels of achievement between men and women does not appear anywhere near as great as it is in swimming. No nation will have completely comparable levels of achievement in all sports. The point is that the Chinese female swimmers have made an unprecedented rise to world dominance in a very short time. Meanwhile the Chinese male swimmers have been stagnant at the world level
Running: There is a long article in the December 1993 issue of Runners World regarding the phenomenal achievements of Chinese women in running. The time frame and explosiveness of the Chinese women's achievements in running parallel those in swimming. The allegations of steroid and/or other drug abuse by Chinese female runners are widespread. Below are a few excerpts from the article. Much more could be presented, but since this note is primarily about swimming, I'll keep it to a minimum
"The Chinese have a bad record of controlling drug use in track and field and other sports. In 1989, Sun Semei, a 1:58.56 800m runner, tested positive for methyl-testosterone. In the last two years, according to IAAF documents, eight Chinese track-and-field athletes have failed drug tests.
Three of these athletes failed random tests administered to "approximately 50" Chinese athletes by the IAAF. However, another independent source says the IAAF has random-tested far fewer than 50 Chinese athletes, more like 25. At any rate, random testing in China has produced a "positive test" rate of between 3 and 6 percent. In the US by contrast random testing has yielded only two positives out of 870 tests in the last three years.
While claiming that China has willingly opened its borders and its athletes to random drug testing, the IAAF in late summer appropriated $250,000 for testing worldwide in 1994 and earmarked most of the funds for testing in China. A few days later, the IOC's medical chief admitted that random testing in China presents many problems. "You need visas, and you need the money because it's expensive," said Prince Alexandre de Merode. "And you can hardly say the visit is unannounced when you get there. We need an extra element of surprise."
Unbelievable performances:
In the Tianjin (China) marathon Wang Junxia ran the first half in 1:14:58 and the second half in 1:09:09. She ran the last 12.2k in 38:16, 19 seconds faster that Ingrid Kristiansen's world record for 12k on the roads.
When Wang Junxia broke the world record for 10k her 5k splits were 15:05.8 (1st half) and 14:26.0 (more than 11 seconds faster than the current 5k world record)
"Track experts were stunned by the new 1500m and 3000m records for two reasons. First, the former records by Tatyana Kazankina were among the oldest in the books, set in the prime of her career, while the Chinese record breakers were virtual novices at 20. Second, Kazankina was widely believed to have been a drug user herself. She retired from the sport after setting her 3000m record, when she was banned for skipping out on a post-race drug test. If the Chinese could break Kazankina's records, they were improving the marks of a runner who had most likely used banned substances."
Last minute cancellations by the Chinese from races they had entered when drug testing was being conducted:
- April 1994, Bob Hanson 10k Road Race in Jakarta, Indonesia ($500,000 bonus for world record);
- April 17, 1994, London marathon, $250,000 bonus for breaking 2:20
- (obviously there are many, many possible reasons for these withdrawals....)
Finally consider diving:
Both the Chinese men and women have been a world power in diving for a number of years. Some supporting data:
Places of Chinese Men and Women at Olympics in Diving
1988 Olympics 1992 Olympics
Platform Men 2nd 1st, 3rd
Women 1st 1st
Springboard Men 2nd 2nd
Women 1st, 2nd 1st
One person attempted to argue that the Chinese women divers crush the competition while the men barely manage to medal. The following information from the 1992 Olympic issue of Swimming World disproves this point:
Gao Min came from behind to win over Irina Lashko in springboard. (Score: 1st 572.4 points, 2nd 514 points)
Fu Mingxia won the platform with 461.43 points over Elena Miroshina of the Unified Team (411 points).
Diving is a sport in which steroid abuse would not likely be beneficial, so no one would question the legitimacy of Chinese achievements in diving. It is very suspicious that the huge disparities between male and female Chinese athletes occur in running and swimming, sports where women greatly benefit from steroid abuse. There has been no rational explanation offered to reconcile the parity of achievement between Chinese men and women in diving, and the huge disparity in swimming and running.
* The argument has been raised that steroids would help men just as well as the women, so why wouldn't the men use steroids too and also dominate the world? The reason here should be obvious. The steroids that enhance athletic performance are naturally present in men at levels ten times higher than in women. The percentage improvement that could be achieved in women by administering extra doses of these drugs is therefore much greater than in men. So if a nation is seeking dominance and is willing to use drugs to achieve it, it is logical to focus efforts on the women
* Chinese women are heavily muscled and have deep, masculine voices.
Granted one could argue that any given female swimmer from another country is quite muscular. However, the allegations are that such muscularity is universal in Chinese women swimmers. Would anyone think to accuse Egerszegi (a lean Hungarian swimmer) of steroid abuse? Although I have not heard every female Chinese swimmer speak, I saw some of the best Chinese swimmers interviewed during the 1992 Olympics. Their voices were very deep and masculine, similar to the East German steroid-abusing women.
Also, CBS televised back-to-back interviews with Zhuong Yong and Jenny Thompson during coverage of the 1994 Swimming World Championships. The depth of Zhuong's voice was unmistakable compared to the feminine voice of Jenny Thompson.
The following is from the December 1993 issue of Runner's World:
"Last March, the French swimming magazine Nation published an account of a training facilities tour that the Chinese swimming federation offered French officials. On their return home, the French coaches reported that they had seen what they believed to be physical signs of drug use- acne all over the swimmers' bodies, very deep female voices and highly defined muscle mass."
* A total of four Chinese women swimmers have tested positive for steroids. I believe this is a record for any nation in women's swimming. Even the East Germans, now publicly acknowledged to have systematically abused steroids, never had a female swimmer test positive in competition. I have further information from Swimming World about two of the four Chinese women. Zhong Weiyue and Zhou Xin tested positive for methandienone, an oral anabolic steroid commonly known as Dianabol. From the April 1994 issue of Swimming World, Dr. Robert Voy, former chief medical officer for the USOC, stated "I can only surmise that they used this old drug because it is one of the most effective, and in oral from clears the system in about ten days."
There has also been a lot of conjecture about other exotic drugs, such as EPO or hGH, or maybe even new drugs known only to the Chinese. However, these two instances above are troubling enough. If the only systematic testing is done at major competitions, then only miscalculation or stupidity should result in a positive test. Only frequent, random, unannounced testing could thwart the use of even this steroid. Who's going to finance this? How would the IOC gain such access to athletes at any given time and on a moment's notice in a country such as China? The East Germans have already proven that it is easy to cheat given a system that can be beaten so easily
* Several of the top Chinese women swimmers are swimming so fast in spite of extremely poor stroke technique. The televised coverage of the 1994 Swimming World Championships showed Le Jingyi's freestyle stroke clearly from several different angles. Le Jingyi swims with a straight arm for almost her complete armstroke, and her underwater arm movement has no "S" shape. Very briefly, for the benefit of any non-swimmers... the elbow should bend at the beginning of the underwater stroke and the pattern of the hand movement should be an "S" shape. Also, Chinese breaststroker Dai Guohon has earned the nickname "the flying dumptruck" for her poor technique.
* It was reported in the December 1993 issue of Runners World that "This sudden leap forward by Chinese women only, combined with the refusal of the Chinese swimming federation to allow unannounced, in-season drug testing by outside officials (on the grounds that they are not an "open" country), has heightened suspicions of drug use. Doubts were also raised in January 1993, when swimming's prestigious World Cup series made two stops in China. World Cup events require drug testing; none of China's superstars entered the meet. One of the lesser known swimmers did test positive at the meet in Beijing and was subsequently banned for two years."
* The pattern demonstrated by Chinese women in swimming is very similar to that of the East Germans, and it is now publicly acknowledged that the East Germans abused steroids. It is reported in January 1994 Swimming World that the East German STASI orchestrated systematic drug use to enhance athletic performance, and that "the objective was to ensure that GDR sport success proved the superiority of the socialist over the capitalist system by using support products (e.g., illegal drugs)." Since the Chinese government is an authoritarian communist regime, it seems sensible to me that similar processes and motivations could be at play in China.
* It has been reported that after the downfall of the socialist East Germany many former GDR coaches and sports scientists moved to China. This allegation has been reported in several magazines including Swimming World, Runners World, and Sports Illustrated.
CBS televised an interview with East German swimming coach Lothar Matthes during coverage of the 1994 World Championships. It was reported that in 1986 Lothar spent 8 months in China advising the Chinese swim team. In 1990 he returned to China and was taken aback by what he saw. A transcription of the interview follows:
Lothar: "Their voices were like baritone, their voices had changed. They were more muscular and there were also some skin problems. And I can't say anything more about it because it was just an impression I got when I was there."
Interviewer: "What was the first thing you thought?"
Lothar: "Something doesn't look right.... it is certainly possible this development was helped along by other means."
Also, it was reported in the January/February issue of SWIM magazine:
As for the East German influence, Chen (Chinese head coach Chen Yunpeng) is candid. "In 1986, Klaus Rudolph, a top East German coach came to China to help us prepare for the Asian Games. During his eight month stay, we learned about East Germany's high altitude training and other advanced training methods." The following year, another GDR coach helped train a group of athletes from Shanghai, and in 1989 Chen went to study in Hungary. Two years later, Soviet Olympic champion Serfei Fesenko traveled to Hubei, teaching the Chinese about Soviet training methods.
* The July/August issue of SWIM magazine reported that a technician who worked in Beijing in a leading doping lab accredited by the IOC has "charged that doping is a veritable institution in China, organized scientifically, and protected and hidden by the authorities." The man's name remains secret to protect his family still in China.
Zi-Wei posted an article stating that there will be no IOC investigation into this matter. I am awaiting further information.
China's large population:
I believe that those who defend the Chinese success based on the large population of the country are misguided. I would be surprised if the US doesn't have a larger effective number of swimmers from which to develop their elite than does China. This conclusion is based on the much higher access that the US's 300 million (guess) have to good swimming pools and training vs. the 1 billion and more Chinese. (See statistics on US swimming infrastructure below).
One need only consider India to determine that a country's population is at best only one of many important factors that influence a country's success in sport
Also, considering China's large population does nothing to explain the disparity between Chinese men and women in swimming, or the meteoric rise of women while the men are stagnant.
Finally, remember that 3/4 of the world's population resides outside China.
A few comments. The steroid abusing East Germans used this same argument to explain their great success in sport, with the variation that this was despite East Germany's small population
It has been stated that China has a large scale, government directed screening program to find and groom the young athletic talent in its population. Other countries accomplish this objective without large numbers of towns with swimming pools that support low level competitive swim teams. There are also large numbers of YMCA's in the US that sponsor swim teams which tend to be more competitive. At a higher level still are the USS (United States Swimming) clubs. These clubs are affiliated with USS, but are independently run by local coaches. In addition large numbers of high schools, colleges, and universities have swim teams. Due to the huge number of swimming programs at all levels of ability in the US, there is tremendous access to the sport and large scale screening that takes care of itself. The best athletes tend to move on to better programs and to stay in the sport. It is probably safe to assume that other countries have screening programs similar to the US. Therefore, it is not reasonable to attribute China's success in women's swimming to a fantastic screening program alone
I called United States Swimming to get some more information. There are 220,000 registered USS swimmers. There are over 2500 USS clubs. Each club has at least one pool for training. USS is a decentralized organization. There are 59 Local Swimming Committees. Each has it own set of by-laws and policy decisions are made at the local level. I also called the national office for the YMCA's. There are 1300 YMCA's with pools suitable for competitive swimming, and 871 of them have competitive swim teams. YMCA's are locally autonomous. There is a national office and five regional offices, but their purpose is to assist in technical matters.
Also, screening the population for young talent is certainly no automatic formula for success, and probably misses many late bloomers. I have subscribed to swimming world for years. Every year they publish lists of the top age group times in the US (10 yrs and under, 11-12 yrs, 13-14, 15-16, and 17-18). I always look at those results, and it is amazing how many childhood wonders never go on to develop into national, let alone world level athletes. I have also seen how many apparently inept swimmers develop into top level athletes later on, after many years of training when they are nearly full grown.
Neither the US nor China can deny the steroid abuse has occurred by their athletes. Four Chinese female swimmers and Angel Meyers in the US. Some have argued that there is a comparable steroid abuse problem in all countries, US and China included. This argument ignores all the other evidence outlined above supporting more systematic, universal steroid abuse by the Chinese women
However, there is another argument based on the nature of the programs in countries such as China and East Germany compared to the US (and other similar countries). My understanding of the Chinese athletic system is that it is highly centralized. People have written that part of the advantage of the Chinese system is that they screen for young talent and then take these young people away to training centers for specialized, intensive training. Also, the government of China is authoritarian and greatly limits the personal freedoms of its citizens. In my opinion it is likely that if Chinese women swimmers are abusing steroids, it is part of the program for training the athletes, with full knowledge of the coaches etc. It seems farfetched that a renegade woman somehow got her hands on the steroids and abused them all on her own.
Athletic programs in the US are highly decentralized. As described above, the US system produces athletes through a diverse network of programs varying from public town teams, country clubs, YMCA's, United States Swimming programs, high schools, and colleges/universities. There is no chance that there is a top-down large scale program of steroid abuse in the US. It is possible that an individual in the US could abuse steroids, and I would think that US citizens would have greater access to the drugs, as an individual acting on his/her own, than the Chinese. It is worth note that the accessibility of steroids in the US is decreasing. I spoke with a friend of mine who is a body builder. He says that much stricter laws against steroids were passed 2 to 3 years ago in the US. Steroids are now much more difficult to acquire in the US because the punishment for possession and distribution is much greater
One rebuttal offered to this point is that the sports organization in China is actually decentralized because there are several different provincial programs. However, all indications are that these provincial programs are highly centralized and government sponsored. After all, those who defend the Chinese still maintain that one of the strengths of their system is the government support of the sports program and the systematic efforts to screen the population for talented athletes
There is certainly no case that the swimming infrastructure in the US is remotely similar to that in China.
Argument: Swimmers in countries such as the US have too much personal freedom and therefore do not train in such a hard and dedicated way as the Chinese who lack person freedoms and are better focused due to the state programs that allow them to do nothing but train
Rebuttal: If the hard, dedicated, focused, state-assisted training of the Chinese was the deciding factor then the Chinese should dominate in all sports. Conversely, if the personal freedoms, distractions, and luxuries in countries such as the US are the reason for poor performance, then they should be the worst in all sports. Since the US excels in many sports, and the Chinese do not excel in all sports, the difference in personal freedom cannot be the decisive factor.
Living in a free society has advantages to sports training too. The ability to enjoy luxuries and great rewards can be a very strong motivator to an athlete. There is no shortage of examples of fanatic training by athletes in free societies.
It is also interesting to note that this same argument was used to explain the success of the steroid abusing East Germans.
The difference between the amount of personal freedom in China and other countries does nothing to explain the huge disparity between Chinese men and women in swimming, or the meteoric rise of women while the men are stagnant.
From the December 1993 issue of Runner's World:
"One prominent exercise physiologist contends that the reputed arduous Chinese training actually makes a good argument against believing in the Chinese. How could anyone train 175 miles a week and then set a world record in 1500m? That's the question raised by Jack Daniels.
"From everything we know you just can't train that many miles and run that fast at the same time," says Daniels, who has been evaluating elite distance runners for nearly 30 years. "You don't see Yobes Ondieki running his world record for 10000m and then coming back with a 3:30 1500m."
It has also been reported that Le Jingyi was doing 100 kg lat pull downs until 7 days before the swimming championships. How does the human body recover from that kind of training so quickly without drug assistance?
Argument: Three of the Chinese female swimmers who tested positive for steroids were discovered in Chinese labs. Therefore, how can the Chinese government be conducting an organized program of universal steroid abuse by the Chinese female swimmers?
Rebuttal: For the sake of argument, assume the Chinese labs do the appropriate tests at major competitions and truthfully report the results. The fact that Chinese athletes tested positive for steroid use in Chinese labs merely implies that the labs did their job at that time, and that the Chinese athletes and/or their coaches/trainers miscalculated the time to stop the steroid use. Even if the Chinese drug testing labs are not involved with promoting programs of steroid abuse, it is still entirely consistent that there are centrally organized (and/or provincially organized) programs for steroid abuse
Argument: The allegation that the Chinese women swimmers use steroids is rooted solely in the racial prejudice and sour grapes mentality of those making the accusations
Rebuttal: This accusation ignores the basic arguments stated above that cause people to reach the logical conclusion that the Chinese female swimmers abuse steroids. Namely:
Several people have written in describing judging bias against Chinese in diving, complaining about minimum age limits for Olympic competition believed to be directed against the Chinese, and select racially prejudice comments against Chinese. Each of these is a separate issue and cannot be extrapolated to an overall, multi-country prejudice against Chinese people.
Before the end of the 1994 World Swimming Championships a position statement was issued by swimming officials from 18 countries asking FINA to use "financial resources, manpower and technology" to resolve the "potentially devastating problem" of "the extensive use of performance-enhancing drugs." Although no country was cited by the position statement, it was obviously directed at China. It is silly to argue that all, or even one of these 18 countries is prejudice against Chinese. Since there are far less than 18 countries that could be considered major players in world level women's swimming, it follows that officials from many countries signed the petition without specific concern about the defeat of their own athletes. It is unreasonable to assume that the allegations are rooted in a sour grapes mentality
I personally have no prejudice against Chinese people. I have reached my conclusions based on the facts outlined above. My protests are rooted in sympathy for the non-steroid abusing female athletes from all countries who are being denied their just rewards by steroid abusing athletes. The evidence available is compelling and people should speak out against probable systematic drug abuse by Chinese women athletes. Nothing can salvage the glory that was due the great non-drug abusing female swimmers but was taken away by steroid abusing E German women. Similarly nothing will be able to salvage the glory due the women who are being beaten by the Chinese today
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